I think it's so important to get the message out into the world and help people through that.

The time is right.

C: 'We are never told that there is also an option B or generally another option. Even in the case of depression. No normal scientist or psychiatrist would say 'drink some cacao, it will help you feel better.' I think it's so important to get the message out into the world and help people through this. The time is right.'

Our conversation with Ceylo

Ceylo, do you have any experience with ceremonial cacao or maybe it's even an essential part of your everyday life?

Yes. Cacao is a part of my everyday life in various forms and ways. I really like to add cacao nibs to my breakfast or smoothies, and sometimes I drink cacao in the morning instead of coffee. Because cacao has caffeine and other stimulants and a lot of valuable ingredients like magnesium and iron, which are very good for our immune system. So actually I consume quite a lot of cacao, but not too much either, because we never want to overdo the nutrient intake. I would say almost every day I enjoy a little cacao; in breakfast, as a drink or even in the form of cacao bars, I love them!

Zudem bietet Kakao im zeremoniellen Kontext für mich eine der schönsten Zeremonie-Erfahrungen überhaupt, da er nie überwältigend wirkt. Wenn ich mit anderer Pflanzenmedizin arbeite, habe ich oftmals große Vorbereitungen. Außerdem muss der Zeitpunkt stimmen und es braucht genügend Raum zur Integration. Die schöne Sache an Kakao ist jedoch, dass er so subtil aber gleichzeitig stark arbeitet. Es ist einfach, die Erfahrungen mit Kakao in den Alltag zu integrieren und es braucht nicht allzu viele Vorbereitungen – nur dich, deine Intention und die Medizin, was es in der Tat sehr divers und spielerisch macht, mit dieser Medizin zu arbeiten.

So overall cacao is a very very nice part of my life and I think for a lot of people too, without really realizing it. Especially as a woman, when it's that time of the month and you feel the desire for chocolate or you want warmth. What you really crave then is cacao. I think most people don't know the difference between raw cacao with all its valuable ingredients and the processed forms of cacao though, unfortunately.

Cacao is a special part of my life that I especially love.

Now, cacao is known for its mood-lifting effects due to the ingredients anandamide and tryptophan, as well as MAO inhibitors.

What is your general opinion on cacao and depression?

First of all, depression is a very broad term. We often don't differentiate in terminology, but there are so many forms of depression and their levels of severity. There are milder types of depression. For example, some people have seasonal depression or postpartum depression after childbirth, which sometimes occurs in a shorter episode. These are the forms of depression that are best prevented and treated. Then there are more severe forms of depression such as bipolar disorder, which can occur in a very severe form. Other forms include psychotic depression or clinical depression, which can last for years. This is the other end of the spectrum. So depression in itself is so diverse. It's very difficult to lump all the forms of depression under one umbrella.

As you mentioned, cacao contains several mood-boosting substances that can work together to make you feel better. In addition, this mode of action can help you deal with the anxiety and stress that often accompany depression. In particular, they occur with prolonged, chronic depression. Cacao also offers support for melancholy, which can be an early symptom of depression.

In general, I think cocoa can be used primarily for prevention, before the depression becomes so severe that it is difficult to manage. There it can also play a role, but then together with other options. Because when depression becomes more severe, one treatment approach is usually not enough. I see cocoa's greatest potential as averting more severe depression.

How would you describe depression in your words and what are the most common forms?

From a medical perspective, we speak of depression when there is a disorder or problem that affects a person to such an extent that he or she can no longer go about everyday life normally. Clinically speaking, it is only in this case that depression is present. However, before it becomes so severe, there are many milder forms and preliminary stages of depression. Usually, affected persons no longer feel joy. Happiness can no longer be felt and sometimes the reason for living is no longer seen. Even things that used to give one pleasure no longer trigger any feeling in one. The world seems gray. When this melancholy becomes stronger, feelings of stress can continue to occur. Since the stress cannot be dealt with, a feeling of anxiety occurs. Some people, because of this joylessness and anxiety inside, try to find happiness outside. Being traumatized or feeling so much sadness and not being able to get out of there, these are all different forms of depression and different forms of feeling like you're not really living. 

There can be several reasons for this. One is that the body does not produce enough neurotransmitters, hormones and enzymes to feel good. This is usually the case with seasonal depression. Due to lack of sunshine, we get less vitamin D in winter, which is very important for the production of enzymes and hormones. An unbalanced diet can also cause deficiencies in important nutrients. Vitamin B3, for example, also plays an important role in stimulating certain neurotransmitters. Some people have depression due to life events. In other people, it is hereditary; depression has been in the family for generations, so they already carry the disease in their DNA. Furthermore, women can get postpartum depression after giving birth. During pregnancy, the body produces so many hormones and neurotransmitters, the levels of which plummet again due to childbirth. If you recognize such a reason for depression, you know it's a phase or seasonal. Then there are also people who don't hate life, but they don't really enjoy it either. They're just surviving. These forms of depression, even in combination with stress and anxiety, are the forms that are easier to heal and where it's easier to understand what's needed. However, if these forms of depression are not treated or cured, they can develop into more severe forms like psychotic depression, where you suffer from psychosis and lose touch with reality. This form of depression is very severe.

Medically, people are offered so little. I realized that when I was studying medicine. I see so many ways to help people. And I wondered why there are so few options in the medical world. The whole issue is somewhat marginalized, as if it's not that important.

I think it's easier to work with and make a change in the milder types of depression than in more severe forms like bipolar, psychotic, and recurrent depression. These are more difficult to treat. What I realized is that if you have a wound and you don't pay attention to it and you don't heal it, but you let it get bigger, it becomes harder to heal. If the wound is still smaller and you already start to do something about it, you have more chances. To do this, however, people need to become aware that they have something. Just like other mental problems, however, depression is often taboo. People don't want to admit they have depression, they don't want to talk about it, they claim it's all normal and hope the depression will go away on its own. Also, because that's the way our society is today. That's why people wait too long to actually do something about it. The reason antidepressants are given is because people in the medical world don't know any better. They don't have a lot of options. They don't really know what to do about it. It's an outdated system. It's really time to look for more ways to help people with depression. There are so many things you can do, you just have to know that they exist and that they can really help. 

As I understand it, cacao may be more of a preventative, is that correct?

Yes, I think that's exactly what it's great for. It definitely acts as one of the best means of prevention. Cocoa is a superfood with so many valuable ingredients that can help with depression and its prevention. Especially in a ceremonial setting, you can see so beautifully how cacao works as a medicine. This is the reason why I always recommend all people to first go to a cacao ceremony and experience for themselves whether cacao works for the person or not. In the right setting and with the right attitude and intention, one can see how powerful cacao can be. In a ceremonial setting, one is especially receptive to its effects. In addition, cocoa generally assists in keeping one's mood up. Tryptophan is one of the special amino acids that the body can't make on its own, but help it make neurotransmitters, enzymes, hormones and proteins. These, in turn, serve to produce melatonin and serotonin, which are important for a good mood. However, tryptophan is only one of the many valuable ingredients in cocoa. So from me a clear 'yes' to prevention and support for milder depression. 

Would you say that cacao can be an alternative to medications like antidepressants for milder forms of depression?

In my personal opinion, antidepressants work in some cases, but as with any medicine, it is very person-specific. What works for some people doesn't work for others. I think this is the problem in the medical world today. The same medicine is used for every person and then we are puzzled why it doesn't work equally for everyone. Each person is individual, needs and tolerates different foods, for example. It is no different with medicine and with antidepressants. In some cases they may work, but in many cases they do not help and can cause many side effects. This is the problem when only a small part of a medicine is isolated and a tablet is made from it. A particular mode of action may become very strong as a result, but it lacks the holistic interaction with the other ingredients that are naturally present. This is the beauty of cocoa, because it doesn't just contain anandamide or tryptophan or MAO inhibitors. It contains all these different substances that work in different ways in different parts of the body. In antidepressants, very often there is only one active ingredient. It reduces the reuptake of some neurotransmitters in the brain or stimulates the production of certain neurotransmitters. While this increase is beneficial in some areas of the body, it has more side effects in other places and can cause problems. Cocoa, and this is true of many other medicinal plants, does not force anything. It works and will also bring some of the effects that antidepressants have, but it offers much more at the same time. This is the reason why it can be great for milder types of depression, before you reach a point where it becomes very difficult to reverse. Cocoa supports the body in so many ways. In that respect, I think it can be a very good alternative to antidepressants. Nevertheless, they are not the same substance. Cocoa is an alternative in certain situations, but in other situations it needs more on the side. Just like antidepressants, cocoa alone does not solve the problem. To be honest, nowadays we don't even know if antidepressants solve anything at all. Yet people are kept on antidepressants all their lives. I think these medications can help when people have a really bad episode or they are used in an intermediate step to try to stop something. For example, if a person has psychotic depression, really wants to end their life, and is having massive difficulty getting back to reality. In such a case, antidepressants can do their job, but keeping a person on antidepressants their whole life and not going to the root of the problem does not solve problems. Antidepressants are an option in the medical world, but I think we really need to find alternative ways to deal with these problems. And yes, cocoa is an alternative option and together with therapies or other medicine it can help very well.

You mentioned that cacao works more holistically than traditional pharmaceuticals, and that at the same time it's important to get to the root of the problem of sufferers. Would you say that cacao can help with that?

Yes! Cacao is a heart opener, that's how we know it. 'Heart opening' means that it helps to connect, take a higher perspective and understand the bigger picture better. We carry this ability within us and by taking certain substances and medicine we can see and understand more from a standpoint of love. Cacao is one of these substances that can help us understand our problems and interactions better in this way. Depression is often a social problem, resulting from not feeling accepted or seen. Often there is deep trauma involved. Until we find ways to work with that trauma and look at it starting with the trigger, we have great difficulty healing anything. We can take something to pretend nothing is wrong or to survive. But we don't just want to survive, we want to flourish and live! To do this, we need the help of medicinal plants that can, if necessary, lead us to a place within ourselves that would never have been reached on our own. This is the way in which cacao can support.

Now, if I have depression, for example, permanent, chronic depression, how often should I drink cacoa - more like daily or more like in phases, depending on how I feel?

First of all, this depends on the type of depression one has. Secondly, therapy also plays a role and what else is done besides using cacao. Furthermore, it depends on how sensitive one is as a person to cacao. Especially the current condition is very crucial here. If one is having a bad episode and needs more therapy, one will also need more cacao than if one is just in calmer waters and wants to use it for prevention to avoid getting into depressive states. Depending on this, one would differentiate how much cacao one drinks, in what state, and in what environment. For example, the many people who suffer from seasonal depression in the winter could use cacao regularly during this time to feel better and reduce the chances of falling into a major depression.

Since cacao also contains, among other things, caffeine and theobromine, which increase the heart rate, especially sensitive people should be careful not to consume too much cacao. In this case, the opposite of the desired would be achieved; one becomes more anxious or experiences other side effects. Therefore, never consume more than 40 g of cacao per day. For very sensitive people, just one or two cups of cacao per week, with appropriate integration time, can go a long way. If one is less sensitive, one may need a daily dose of cacao and attend a ceremony now and then. 

So a recommendation to consume cacao depends on what is going on with the person at the time. Drinking cacao on a daily basis can make it easier to go about everyday life. However, if one wants to go deeper, one would do this in combination with therapy. Or one might use cacao in a ceremonial space where an intention is set, allowing the cacao to be more focused and deeper.

So I think one should look individually and together with a professional; a psychologist, a doctor or a cacao expert, what is good for a person in his current condition. In the joint collaboration with a professional there will always be a possibility to find out in which way the work with cacao is possible.

Personally, I'm very sensitive to cacao, notice it very quickly after drinking it, and also clearly feel it when the 'cacao high' then subsides a few hours later. I think antidepressants work more consistently throughout the day in comparison, right? Can the fluctuations in hormone levels throughout the day be a problem in this sense?

Of course, it depends on the time of day when the cacao is consumed. The hormone level is not constant, but different at different moments. First of all, this fluctuation is also experienced with antidepressants, but in a different way. In a way they have a constant effect, but shortly after taking them they have the strongest effect. For example, if the antidepressant is taken in the morning, it will have the highest potency in the morning. So, the reduced effectiveness will be felt during the day as well. Since cacao is a natural substance, it works for a shorter period of time than pharmaceutical antidepressants. The peak of effectiveness of cocoa is reached more quickly. Since cacao contains caffeine and other stimulants, it is best taken in the morning or during the day, thus providing the body with energy throughout the day. If you drink it quite late in the evening, it can affect the quality of sleep, which is very important for regeneration and healing processes. However, if ceremonies are attended from time to time, often in the afternoon or evening, this is not a problem either. Once one has taken the cacao at a later time of the day, soothing teas or herbs can help calm the body before going to bed, if needed. That's the beauty of cacao being a natural medicine. It has very few side effects and is very easy to combine with other plants and forms of natural medicine. In smaller doses, cacao has no negative effects. It can even be used during pregnancy and breastfeeding. Because of the caffeine and other stimulants it contains, one should be a little careful, but in appropriate doses it has been drunk for thousands of years and as far as we know it has always done more good than harm. Of course, if one overdoses, side effects such as migraines and mild nausea can occur. In this case, the dose or frequency of intake should be adjusted accordingly. 

To return to the initial question: Yes, the fluctuations should be considered. Therefore, it is important to find out individually how a person reacts to the cacao, so that the optimal dose and the perfect time to take it can be determined individually.

Other than antidepressants, what would you say helps depression very well?

In my personal opinion, antidepressants work in some cases, but as with any medicine, it is very person-specific. What works for some people doesn't work for others. I think this is the problem in the medical world today. The same medicine is used for every person and then we are puzzled why it doesn't work equally for everyone. Each person is individual, needs and tolerates different foods, for example. It is no different with medicine and with antidepressants. In some cases they may work, but in many cases they do not help and can cause many side effects. This is the problem when only a small part of a medicine is isolated and a tablet is made from it. A particular mode of action may become very strong as a result, but it lacks the holistic interaction with the other ingredients that are naturally present. This is the beauty of cocoa, because it doesn't just contain anandamide or tryptophan or MAO inhibitors. It contains all these different substances that work in different ways in different parts of the body. In antidepressants, very often there is only one active ingredient. It reduces the reuptake of some neurotransmitters in the brain or stimulates the production of certain neurotransmitters. While this increase is beneficial in some areas of the body, it has more side effects in other places and can cause problems. Cocoa, and this is true of many other medicinal plants, does not force anything. It works and will also bring some of the effects that antidepressants have, but it offers much more at the same time. This is the reason why it can be great for milder types of depression, before you reach a point where it becomes very difficult to reverse. Cocoa supports the body in so many ways. In that respect, I think it can be a very good alternative to antidepressants. Nevertheless, they are not the same substance. Cocoa is an alternative in certain situations, but in other situations it needs more on the side. Just like antidepressants, cocoa alone does not solve the problem. To be honest, nowadays we don't even know if antidepressants solve anything at all. Yet people are kept on antidepressants all their lives. I think these medications can help when people have a really bad episode or they are used in an intermediate step to try to stop something. For example, if a person has psychotic depression, really wants to end their life, and is having massive difficulty getting back to reality. In such a case, antidepressants can do their job, but keeping a person on antidepressants their whole life and not going to the root of the problem does not solve problems. Antidepressants are an option in the medical world, but I think we really need to find alternative ways to deal with these problems. And yes, cocoa is an alternative option and together with therapies or other medicine it can help very well.

Could you give an overview of the different forms of antidepressants? Which one is most commonly used and what substances are in it?

There are about six different types of antidepressants used in the medical world. The most common are SSRIs and MAO inhibitors. SSRIs are serotonin reuptake inhibitors and MAO inhibitors curb the activity of enzymes called MAO. Then there are Tsr's or Tsa's, this is an older form that is administered when none of the other types are effective. And then there are NRI's, NaSSA's, and SNaRIS's. All of them actually work in a similar way. They work in the brain to stop certain neurotransmitters, which are small particles that are critical to well-being, emotional perception, the body's reward system, and physical activity. Antidepressants contain an isolated substance that prevents these neurotransmitters from being broken down. Serotonin, for example, is one of the most commonly known neurotransmitters. We need it to feel good, to feel happiness and love. Medicine like cocoa increases the amount of serotonin produced. Chemical drugs stop the reuptake of certain neurotransmitters or they inhibit the activity of the degrading substance MAO, so that produced serotonin or dopamine stays longer in the body.

In certain parts of the body, this increased level is positive. In the brain, it makes you feel good. In other parts of the body, however, too much of these substances can cause side effects such as shakiness and anxiety, make the heart beat too fast, and reduce the activity of the reproductive organs. This is the problem with the matter: antidepressants work not only in the brain, but in the whole body. They have many side effects and can negatively affect the body. This is the danger. We often do not know the holistic effects of taking an isolated substance in such high amounts.

Wenn die Substanz direkt aus der Natur kommt, weiß man, sie ist ganzheitlich. Kakao enthält ebenfalls MAO-Hemmer, die den Anteil an Serotonin im Körper erhöhen. Gleichzeitig versorgt er den Körper aber mit Energie, sodass diese Wirkung direkt in Aktivität umgesetzt werden kann. Dann enthält Kakao noch eine Substanz, die das Herz und die Lungen öffnet, sodass Dinge, die sich zeigen, besser losgelassen werden können. Und diese Ganzheitlichkeit gibt es bei einer isolierten Substanz nicht, weshalb solche Medikamente nicht zu jeder Zeit und nicht für jede Person funktionieren. 

If a person is taking antidepressants or St. John's Wort, are there any recommendations not to use cocoa in this case? 

Abandonment is a big word, because as already mentioned, cocoa is not aggressive in its effect, but very mild and loving. But if you take antidepressants or other substances with MAO inhibitors, it can be a problem for the body. There can be more side effects and increase the effect of the antidepressants even more. Very often there are interactions between similarly acting medications. Instead of completely giving up cocoa, I would always recommend affected individuals to seek discussion with people who have been using cocoa for a long time and know how to start carefully. Since we don't know how the body will react, it is always best to start with a small dose. If that works well, you can increase a little and see what dose works well for the person individually. In any case, if one is already taking medication, one should definitely not try it alone, but always seek the support of experienced experts. In general, cocoa is one of the safest types of medicine available. This is true for most people, but as with all things, it does not have to be true for every person. Depending on who you are, how you are feeling, and how sensitive you are in general, you should slowly and with guidance see if cocoa works for you.

Would you say that St. John's wort works the same way as other antidepressants?

Yes, in some ways it does. It works in the same areas as antidepressants and provides some of the same interactions. At the same time, it also poses some of the same dangers as a result. Even though St. John's wort is completely natural, you should be a little more careful with this because it interacts with other medications or substances. Also, in combination with cocoa, one should proceed cautiously so as not to overload the body with too many MAO inhibitors. If one has too much serotonin in the body and it is not broken down, it can lead to a so-called serotonin syndrome. This can be very dangerous and damage the body and brain if not treated. Since St. John's wort has an effect on serotonin levels, the body should not be given too much so that it does not go into shock. Nevertheless, St. John's wort can help people and can be a good alternative to chemical antidepressants. One should always be thoughtful about which substances one uses and in what quantity, and proceed slowly when changes occur so that the body's reaction is noticed early on.

Do you know a person who had milder depression and was able to cure it with the help of cacao?

Yes, I actually know some people who have been helped by cocoa with their depression or during difficult episodes. My partner also has depressive episodes. Cocoa helps him get to the bottom of what is going on inside him. Cocoa assists in bringing out emotions and feeling them. It also helps my partner to love himself more, to accept and understand the situation. Cocoa is a loving companion for him, accompanying him in his process. For other people, physical exercise or dancing already helps. Here, however, different approaches can also work together perfectly, for example a dance event or an Ecstatic Dance in combination with cocoa. While drinking cocoa, an intention can be set, the body is opened and prepared to come into letting go and releasing through the movement. In addition, physical activity also releases hormones that make one feel better. Furthermore, integrating cocoa into therapy sessions can greatly increase effectiveness. 

I know so many people who cocoa can help them with their depression in this way, or help them find their way out of depressive emotional worlds.

The beauty of cocoa is that it is high in iron, magnesium, vitamins and other elements that we need for wellness and would usually take through supplements. Even if cocoa had no other effect on the body through stimulating ingredients like caffeine or theobromine; the nutrients alone can make you feel better. I recommend cocoa to many people around me and it has already been able to help in many ways, big and small. 

Are there perhaps other legal plants that, in combination with cacao, have a mood-boosting effect and are not harmful to the body?

Oh yes, there are actually quite a few! There are many mood-enhancing herbs that many people don't know about. Chamomile, lavender, lemon balm and blue lotus, for example, have a calming effect on the nervous system and, when combined with cacao, have a great effect on well-being. From these herbs you can wonderfully make a tea, which can serve as a liquid for the cacao. Rose also harmonizes super with cacao. It also has a heart-opening effect and stimulates the production of serotonin. Rose, however, is very mild, very natural. It's actually a lot of fun to see which herbs combine well with cocoa and which ones you like. 

In the ceremonial environment, I really like the combination of rose and blue lotus with cacao. At that time, Blue Lotus was used as a stimulant, a plant medicine with a very feminine energy that opens the heart and relaxes the body. Blue lotus has a comparatively stronger effect than other herbs, but it is absolutely legal. When combined with cacao, it has a relaxing effect, but at the same time provides the body with energy. A very nice combination that works wonderfully. Instead of a tea, it is also good to make a tincture, extracting and concentrating the ingredients of the flowers. Of this you only need a few drops, which you can drip into the cocoa.

A variety of medicinal mushrooms also work great with cacao. Reishi, for example, is an adaptogen that is very good for the immune system and can also be taken well over a long period of time. Reishi is even called the 'king of immortality' and has a long tradition as a medicinal mushroom in China. Its slightly nutty flavor also adds a great aroma. With the support of these various medicinal plants, which are then also delicious, you can make your own little party out of the healing process.

What could psychotherapy with cacao look like? 

That depends entirely on what form of psychotherapy is needed and to what extent. What works wonderfully is combining it with speech therapy. Cacao helps to get into a calm, heart-open state where it is easier to get through to the problem. Cacao can also be used together with somatic therapy or body therapy. Nowadays we know that many traumas are stored in the body. There are many forms of therapy to release and let go of them. Holotropic breathing or other breathing techniques also help to bring out issues. By combining this breath work with cacao, one can get to a deeper level in therapy and the therapy goal set becomes more quickly achievable. Depending on the problem, one would look at what therapy can support the affected person and how. Going to nature, for example, is also becoming an increasingly popular form of therapy. Imagine going to nature after drinking a cacao and then doing breathing exercises... that would definitely help you reach your goal, whatever it is. 

Cocoa can be integrated in both clinical settings and alternative therapies. There are a few studies on cocoa and depression or therapy/treatment of anxiety and stress, but people always want more research and want evidence. So it's important that doctors and clinical professionals open up and be willing to try cocoa in the treatment of depression and experience its potential.

When people feel safe to try alternative options, it helps the way each approach works. That's the thing about the mind. For any form of treatment to be effective, it's super important that we feel safe and feel like we're doing the right thing for our bodies. If you don't believe in how something works and you do it anyway, there's a good chance it won't work. To heal, you have to be convinced and put your whole heart into it. You have to believe in it.